{The List} Borders

[Frozzy]

Introduction

Borders. The limits of our empire. The shell of our civilization. It's the crux of what we can do, and a show of our power over the world. Here is a place to discuss and improve aspects of this feature for Civilization IV

Summary

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The ideas

1 - Cities
1.1 - City Radii

"The 21-square blob doesn't cut it. Allow cities' radii to 'meld', allowing for greater freedom in city placement. If two cities have overlapping radii, they should gain extra squares elsewhere. It should be possible to cluster your cities along rivers or fertile coastlines." - Sandman

2 - National
2.1 - General
"A distinction between CULTURAL border and PHYSICAL border. It's not the same thing and while happiness can go down when a city is more attached to another culture, it doesn't mean it can't be countered, nor is the physical border itself dependant on culture." skywalker

"Let borders be affected by the terrain." - Brent

Conclusions

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Respectfully Compiled - Frozzy
With special thanks to:

[Kuciwalker]

I don't think they should make a distinction between the cultural and physical borders, but I do have a proposal that I think will solve the problem nicely. Over "bad" terrain (desert, tundra and tundra forest, jungle, maybe mountains) make cultural borders propogate a lot farther. This fixes the problem of having large, useless but unclaimed land. Then allow people to trade (or occupy) that extra territory (the territory outside what the cultural borders would be).

This territory would be divided into large chunks all containing only one terrain type. The chunks of the same terrain type would be divided by lines between cities. To gain useful territory, though, you would have to trade (or capture) actual cities.

[Lorizael]

I'd be in favor of the construction of military forts that created borders. It would be the simplest way to model planting a flag in the ground. You'd get nine squares that would never expand. Nine might be too much, though. Hmm.

[POTUS]

I like the idea of forts, but I think a fixed number is too infexible. I think that they should have forts, and with one unit in them automatically, i.e. a garrison. The fort would give you a 1 tile radius around the fort. Then for every military unit in that radius, you'd gain an extra 1 tile radius, up to a 3 or 4 tile radius. This fort, given time and terrain could grow into a city. Maybe, the fort could count as a colony if it was connected to the rest of your empire.

[Tiberius]

I like the fort city idea.

Forts would be created by army engineers (a special worker, that would cost 1 or 2 pop points, would be much more expensive than a regular worker and would be able to build only roads, fortifications, barricades, fort cities, radar towers, and other military related improvements) and would have a fixed, one tile wide cultural radius. Army engineers should be able to build forts on mountains, too.

A fort city would have zone of control, would offer a defence bonus similar to a barricade and would act as a radar tower.

The cultural radius would never grow and the fort would never culture-flip.

[Shogun Gunner]

Is it too difficult to ask for the ability to negotiate borders with the AI? As I type this I'm already thinking that this will be too complicated for the AI to understand properly and would be ripe for exploits.

But I'll post it anyway. If you plant a Fort/City on the border, but later choose to give the land away for a price (a la Louisana Purchase) you should be able to identify the hexes to trade away.

Regarding the fort city specifically, these would often be used to secure resources since they would have a one tile wide cultural radius. It's a good idea.

[Shogun Gunner]

I like the concept of the cultural borders being different than the national borders, but this would be difficult to implement, no?

One color for your national and a different for your cultural border? What about the other guy? His cultural border could overlap your national border. Lots of lines on the map. If this idea could be done with lines on the map, then there's a possibility.

[Trifna]

Why not puting only a physical border, but to show a gradual influence of culture? The more you approach a civilization, the stronger its influence. Perhaps it could be a toggle on/off color (the darker it is, the strongest is the influence). If your influence is too low and some other civ's influence is too high, the morale would be affected (and a recolt could come if it gets too extreme).

In modern times, the culture would cover even more, as Japanese culture now goes to US and vice versa.

[Kuciwalker]

no comments on my proposal?

[Shogun Gunner]

Skywalker,

I see what you are suggesting, but I always perceived the borders (as they are done currently) to represent the "power" of the city. I don't think the power of a city is extended just because the terrain is bad or unwanted. In fact, I think the opposite is true that borders tend to be just assumed, but not defined (think the Saudi Arabian border with Yemen and Oman).

One things humans are good at is identifying what is important, trying to lay claim to it and then fighting over it. In this way, I think the current system works. If you think that tundra is important, go settle Nome, Alaska on it. If not, someone else might come in there and do it. You might be lucky and find oil there later

OTOH, I'm not against the idea of allowing population to work tiles that are beyond the city limits. In this way, its kinda like the colony concept. If your city only has a radius of two tiles all around, but there is something you want to work, three...maybe four (but that would be it) tiles away, you should be able to work it (maybe at a reduction due to distance from the city). However, you do still run the risk that an opponent would plant a city which would bump your populatin out of that tile.

I don't know if I fully understand the last paragraph of your post.

[Roman]

I would like to be able to redraw borders in negotiations with other civilizations.

[Lorizael]

I'd like to be able to redraw borders as well, but I don't think that's something the AI would be able to handle very well. But if you could trade border-making forts... you'd be set.

[Inverse Icarus]

the ability to manage borders is a must.

1. there should be a way to "trade" borders (redraw them with a nation). This could be used in negotiations / peace treaties. Rather than give the Germans Paris, i can give them the 2 tiles they want.

2. there should be a way to expand borders BY FORCE. if i can station 20 panzers on the outskirts of an Egyptian cultural influence near my border, why can't i work the tiles?

[Stefu]

I think there should be an option to make a border treaty, which makes all the borders between two nations as they are at the moment of the signing of the treaty stable, so they no longer fluctuate with the cultural changes (unless there's an assimilation of a city, changes because of conquest or so on.) The border treaty would also give all the small clumps of stranded uncultured area between the two nations part of one nation or the other. In effect, this would make a cultural border a physical border. There would still be an "invisible" cultural border going on to show the cultural influence.

[Roman]

Originally posted by Stefu
I think there should be an option to make a border treaty, which makes all the borders between two nations as they are at the moment of the signing of the treaty stable, so they no longer fluctuate with the cultural changes (unless there's an assimilation of a city, changes because of conquest or so on.) The border treaty would also give all the small clumps of stranded uncultured area between the two nations part of one nation or the other. In effect, this would make a cultural border a physical border. There would still be an "invisible" cultural border going on to show the cultural influence.

Good idea, but I would prefer if physical and cultural borders were one and the same and such treaty prevented even assimilation of the other side's cities.